From Lost Open Water Student to Overhead Protocols, Cave 1, 2 and Beyond| S2E13

[Jay]: Welcome to the dive table. I'm Jay Gardner
and with me is producer Daniel for this episode.

[Jay]: We're doing kind of a special little
series here, Daniel, that I'll let you set

[Jay]: up. But I'm excited to be chatting with
you this lovely evening and to have you and

[Jay]: your voice and all of your hair that's
not in your head, but in your beard on the

[Jay]: show. So it's the elusive producer Daniel
show and I'm excited about it.

[Daniel]: It's the more and more less elusive,
I think, is how it's going. Good man, good

[Daniel]: man, good to see you. Actually, I
wanted to start this series because it was

[Daniel]: something we had talked about a long
time ago and life, et cetera, gets in the way.

[Daniel]: So before we got any further, or specifically
before you got any further, I wanted to sit

[Daniel]: down with you and discuss the path
that you're on. Um, in scuba diving, um, there's

[Daniel]: the overview, there's the big picture
path, and then there's a, the smaller path,

[Daniel]: um, that, that you're on. Um, and
I won't give any details until you're ready

[Daniel]: to start with the story. But, um,
before we got too far down that road, um, I

[Daniel]: wanted to give you the opportunity
to kind of take two steps back, talk about

[Daniel]: where you're coming from. Up to. where
you are right now, which is very different

[Daniel]: than almost cursed almost a year ago.
I was a year ago this time. I would say it

[Daniel]: was a very different diver. So with
that, I would like to hear what's going on

[Daniel]: with you, man.

[Jay]: Yeah, that's good. So yeah, so yeah,
man, when we first met a long time ago, but

[Jay]: we won't talk about

[Daniel]: Oh, God.

[Jay]: that story. We won't talk about that.
Where you

[Daniel]: Long

[Jay]: lost

[Daniel]: time ago.

[Jay]: me in my open water class. You remember
that

[Daniel]: Wow, what?

[Jay]: as a DM?

[Daniel]: No,

[Jay]: Yeah.

[Daniel]: that was a test and you passed.

[Jay]: So that was DM Daniel, not

[Daniel]: Actually,

[Jay]: producer Daniel.

[Daniel]: the test was the conversation you
had after you came to the surface.

[Jay]: Oh man, that was not fun.

[Daniel]: Ha

[Jay]: Yeah.

[Daniel]: ha ha.

[Jay]: We won't, we won't go down that story,
but

[Daniel]: Ah!

[Jay]: I got yelled out by the course director
and a brand new open water diver. I have no

[Jay]: idea. I thought I did everything right
in terms of searching for a minute and surfacing

[Jay]: and, and I got lit into so.

[Daniel]: Yeah, well, opinions on how that should
have gone down.

[Jay]: Yeah, yeah. No, you know, it's, it's
an interesting story, because we don't have

[Jay]: to bag on anybody to tell a story. What's
interesting is brand new open water diver,

[Jay]: because I remember it clearly. And I
remember in the course that they drove home,

[Jay]: like, you know, safe divers, take your
safety stop, like, was driven home, right?

[Jay]: And that you follow your computer. Those
are two things. So I had this weird moment

[Jay]: where I searched for a minute. in one
direction because we had lost you and the other

[Jay]: teammate in a, in a nice little kick
up of silt in my face. And, um, and so I looked

[Jay]: at my watch. I searched for a minute
and then I was stuck in this conundrum when

[Jay]: I got to what are 15 feet, which was,
do I take a safety stop or do I not? Am I computer

[Jay]: saying take a safety stop? And in my
head, I'm hearing this replay of safe divers

[Jay]: do a safety stop. And so I decided to
do the safety stop thinking I need to be a

[Jay]: safe diver. So, so that added whatever
three minutes to my, to my thing. And then

[Jay]: I surfaced. So it was a total of four
minutes or whatever it was for five minutes,

[Jay]: how whatever real time was in that. So
yeah, by, by definition, I was not on the surface

[Jay]: in a minute, which was the plan, but
that was totally unclear to me. You know, it

[Jay]: wasn't explained to me. It was searched
for a minute. Then come to the surface.

[Daniel]: Yeah,

[Jay]: Yeah.

[Daniel]: I mean, I would say. Potentially some
confusion on what the priority is at that point.

[Jay]: Yeah.

[Daniel]: I mean at that point You are the lost
diver and you are fine. We just don't know

[Daniel]: you're fine and so It's your responsibility
to let us know you're fine Without but also

[Daniel]: in theory Sacrificing health

[Jay]: Yeah,

[Daniel]: I

[Jay]: there's

[Daniel]: don't know.

[Jay]: I know it was a weird one.

[Daniel]: Yeah

[Jay]: Yeah, so it was in retrospect now looking
back, I can see both sides of that equation

[Jay]: really clearly.

[Daniel]: I can, I totally understand why that
person was the way they were. Like I totally

[Daniel]: get that. But I got that at the time.
This isn't nothing new to me. Like I think,

[Daniel]: I feel like that person's probably
experienced some things similar and I was a

[Daniel]: little surprised at the reaction.

[Jay]: Yeah. So all the way from there to

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: now, which is the funny part. All right.
And, and, um, and, and I think it's a, it's

[Jay]: a great cautionary tale, like the instructors
out there. If you're teaching an open water

[Jay]: class, that's a good thing to cover because
simply saying search for a minute and then

[Jay]: go to the surface. Doesn't account for
the complexity of, I think it was dive three

[Jay]: in open water. It was the deepest I had
been, which I think it was like 60 feet, which

[Jay]: was, you know, a big deal at the time.
And you just there's so many things going through

[Jay]: your head that you're not sure how to
react. So I reacted in the best way I thought

[Jay]: and then yeah, I got crushed for it.
So that was that was not a great experience.

[Jay]: But from there is that the tiniest little?

[Daniel]: Touch your head.

[Jay]: Yeah, yeah, basically. But yeah, to kind
of go from there. That wasn't the plan to talk

[Jay]: about that. Not to where I am now is
quite interesting. But I think specifically,

[Daniel]: Now you do the yelling. No, I'm just
kidding. Just

[Jay]: Now

[Daniel]: kidding.

[Jay]: I'll do the yelling. Yeah, exactly. Now
I do the yelling. Exactly. No, I think specifically

[Jay]: for me in my journey as a diver from
that open water class, and I'm glad I continued

[Jay]: to going and I kind of set myself out
in my first hundred dives or so in just experiencing

[Jay]: different things. Like I want to go and
see what these reefs are all about. I want

[Jay]: to go and try, you know, this type of
diving, scientific diving. I want to try cameras

[Jay]: and blah, blah. I didn't know what I
wanted. So I tried a bunch of different

[Daniel]: Sure,

[Jay]: things.

[Daniel]: sure.

[Jay]: and plan some trips that would have multiple
types of diving in one single trip. And for

[Jay]: me, the trip that really stood out to
me, you know, however many years ago it was,

[Jay]: you know, two or three years ago, two
years ago was my first time in a cenote was

[Jay]: like,

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: Oh, and I remember it so clearly it was
in dos ojos, which it means two eyes. Um, I

[Jay]: was on what the, what's called now or
what's been called the Barbie line, which is,

[Jay]: it's funny because at the end of that,
line is actually a Barbie doll

[Daniel]: Oh yeah.

[Jay]: and a gator.

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: Yeah, so kind of funny. But I remember
getting to go in there and you know, guided

[Jay]: dive. I'm not a cavern or cave or anything
like that. But at the end of that dive was

[Jay]: this little swim through, you know, that
technically was overhead. But didn't seem like

[Jay]: it to me, but it felt like I was in an
overhead environment, you're kind of enclosed

[Jay]: big, big open, open area to swim through.
So next, it was probably, you know, I don't

[Jay]: know. 25 yards, 20 yards, if not less.
And it just, that environment lit me up. It

[Jay]: was like, yes, this is the environment
that I wanna be in that really, really lights

[Jay]: me up for whatever reason. Wet rocks,
underwater, was it for me. Ha ha ha.

[Daniel]: rocks.

[Jay]: Wet rocks, lots of wet rocks. So that
set me on a journey to say, look, where I wanna

[Jay]: go as a diver. is I want to learn how
to be in this environment, which means I need

[Jay]: to become a cave diver. And at the time,
you know, the idea of being a cave diver was

[Jay]: like trying to become a black belt ninja.
You know, it was so far from where I was in

[Jay]: that moment, but that really lit me up
and I wanted to do that. So coming full circle

[Jay]: to that journey and that path of improvement
and personal skills development, team skills

[Jay]: development, all the things that I've
been working on. I just last week or two weeks

[Jay]: ago finished my first really, I don't
wanna say it's my first step, but my first,

[Jay]: I would say official step in that direction,
which is completing what's called overhead

[Jay]: protocols inside of the agency that I
train with, which is really the foundation

[Jay]: for then Cave 1 and Cave 2. which is
next. And so I think we wanted to talk about

[Jay]: that and talk about that journey up until
this point and how overhead protocols went

[Jay]: and all that fun stuff.

[Daniel]: Yeah, so who was your instructor?

[Jay]: Yeah. So I've had a, um, it's been a
crazy couple of weeks. Literally it's been

[Jay]: two and a half weeks straight. And this
is my first kind of day back from all of that,

[Jay]: where I took some time off of real work,
um, to focus on scuba work. And I, we had a

[Jay]: four back to back courses. So some of
these, I was teaching some of these, I was

[Jay]: assisting. And the first one of these,
I was a student in, and so, um, Ben boss, who's

[Jay]: the training director. UTD scuba diving,
flew across from Denmark. He's from Holland,

[Jay]: but he lives in Denmark. It's a funny
story that he told, I think, on the podcast

[Jay]: that we had with him. So he flew across
and stayed with me for two and a half weeks

[Jay]: here at our house. And we hubbed out
of my garage slash shop. So I've turned it

[Jay]: all into a shop now, and it is my garage,
but it's my shop. It's my scuba shop dedicated

[Jay]: to that. And, uh, we hub data there.
And so he flew in and I, you know, a lot of

[Jay]: people talk about it's the instructor.
That's true in a lot of regards. I think agency

[Jay]: has something to do with it too, because
they're, you know, the way that they approach

[Jay]: training. Um, and the, the sequence of,
so sequencing of that training is important.

[Jay]: But for me, Ben also ran my tech one
class. Um, and I just. knew this is a guy I

[Jay]: can learn from. He's done some incredible
dives. The stories that he can tell are just

[Jay]: phenomenal. And he had a way, I just
really enjoyed the way that he instructed.

[Jay]: And I learned a ton from him in that
tech combo class that I took last year after

[Jay]: Dima. And so I knew when I go into the
caves, I wanted him to be my instructor. I

[Jay]: want to learn from him.

[Daniel]: We had him on the podcast. I think
it was episode four. Right. Does that

[Jay]: Yeah,

[Daniel]: sound

[Jay]: and he's

[Daniel]: right?

[Jay]: coming back to do two more, which I'm
excited

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: about. So, um, but we've, we've just
had some scheduling issues to get him back

[Jay]: on the show, but, uh, but yeah, he, he's
an incredible instructor, the way that he,

[Jay]: uh, explains things and relates things.
And, and it's just a bastion of knowledge.

[Jay]: Um, you know, in depth to, you know,
for me, I want to know why. And I'm never,

[Jay]: I'm never satisfied with, well, that's
just the way we do it. Or that's how I learned

[Jay]: it from so-and-so.

[Daniel]: or we've always done it that way.

[Jay]: Or we've always done it that way. Yeah.
Those, those answers just don't fly with me.

[Jay]: Um, and I really want to understand the
why behind things and, uh, Ben being in the

[Jay]: position that he's in and the dives that
he's done and who he's worked with. I mean,

[Jay]: um, and who he's learned from. Everything
down to, you know, the, the why, for example,

[Jay]: you know, we typically cut the little
dangly that is on your. wings, uh, deflate

[Jay]: a rear deflate. So, um, right on that
valve and tie two knots. And we train finding

[Jay]: the, the actual valve itself, and then
basically pinching. And then you're going to

[Jay]: have that string and the why behind that,
you know, seems like, Oh, we don't want danglies,

[Jay]: but that's not the case. The why the
ultimate why behind that is those danglies

[Jay]: will can get trapped in that hip D ring
right there. And then when you go to actually

[Jay]: dump gas, right, you can't,

[Daniel]: stuck.

[Jay]: it's stuck.

[Daniel]: Stuck, right?

[Jay]: Um, and it causes all sorts of havoc.
The crazy part is that was explained as to

[Jay]: why, I mean, every little thing has a
why behind it. And it comes back down to either

[Jay]: safety and, and the lessons that have
been learned, or it comes down to configuring

[Jay]: things for easing the team's burden in
the dive when there's an emergency or something

[Jay]: like that. And Ben came back, he's, I
got, I got a video to show you. And he showed

[Jay]: me a, a video of him doing a CCR one
class with the diver and that exact thing happened.

[Jay]: He got it on video where, where that
dongle

[Daniel]: Hmm.

[Jay]: is trapped and is making it impossible
to dump gas in that moment because he can't

[Jay]: get it loose of, of the things that are
clipped off of that D ring. So kind of interesting.

[Daniel]: interesting. I would never have never
thought about that. So that's kind of big picture.

[Daniel]: Let's narrow it down a little bit.
Talk about the training itself. Because you've

[Daniel]: had similar training to that before.
So how is this different?

[Jay]: Yeah. So it's a great question. Um, I
think within

[Daniel]: Thanks.

[Jay]: the, you're so good at this, uh, you've
done this before. Uh, yeah. So, so overhead

[Jay]: protocols, um, the prerequisites within
the UTD are unified team diving, uh, standards

[Jay]: and procedures. Um, I think you have
to, you know, have, I think something like

[Jay]: 75 dives somewhere around there. So,
you know, you, you've gotten the water. a little

[Jay]: bit, but then I think the prereqs here
are essentials, which is UTD's version of what

[Jay]: other people call fundies. But essentials
is really a personal skills

[Daniel]: That'd be

[Jay]: view.

[Daniel]: fundamentals.

[Jay]: Yeah,

[Daniel]: Fundamental.

[Jay]: fundamentals. It's really looking at
the balanced rig or proper weighting, looking

[Jay]: at propulsion. So the five different
ways or techniques for propulsion. It's looking

[Jay]: at, you know, personal buoyancy, breathing
for buoyancy skills. And it's looking at, you

[Jay]: know, your other skills. So five minutes
sense and shooting an SMB procedures for that,

[Jay]: all those things and a basic six and
all these things are, are taxing like SMB basic

[Jay]: six are taxing on your buoyancy and trim.
Right. So, you know, you're task loading a

[Jay]: procedure of shooting an SMB, but it's
really testing not whether or not, you know,

[Jay]: the procedure. but it's testing that
buoyancy balance trim while you're task loaded.

[Jay]: And so it's a personal skills. And my
essentials class was a little bit more than

[Jay]: that. You know, it was also, it was old
school instructor who I loved to death and

[Jay]: he gave it to us because we, you know,
we needed more than just a personal skills

[Jay]: class. And so we got the heat turned
up in my personal one, but essentials is that.

[Jay]: And then... The other thing that I think
kind of gets into the mix of prerequisites

[Jay]: is, you know, doubles. So being able
to understand the, the configuration of a set

[Jay]: of a twin set or a set of doubles, um,
understanding how to react to failures on those

[Jay]: doubles. Um, right. The plumbing that's
happening behind your back, all of those things.

[Jay]: So those are really the prerequisites
that exist for this course. For me, my path

[Jay]: was. No, I went through essentials. I
went through a full IDC, uh, and became a dive

[Jay]: master first with UTD. And, uh, I went
through tech, creational tech one on a big

[Jay]: course. I did side Mount, um, you know,
technical side Mount training on that as well.

[Jay]: So the side Mount doubles and, um, and
then from there, um, was presented with this

[Jay]: opportunity and the cool part about all
this is, you know, my 2023. As you and I have

[Jay]: talked about a lot and I think I've talked
about on the podcast, my whole plan for 2020,

[Jay]: 23 was I was moving and I was going to
move and get established. That was it. Like

[Jay]: move and, and get my own personal diving
established. And I was going to push cave diving

[Jay]: and all those other things that I want
to do out to 2024, because I just felt like

[Jay]: I don't have the bandwidth to try and
plan these things and figure it all out.

[Daniel]: How's that

[Jay]: And

[Daniel]: going?

[Jay]: Yeah. So I've mentioned this on, um,
on another podcast. I think we did with Sarah,

[Jay]: like my strategy for dive travel often
is, uh, I call it the coat Taylor, like, Oh,

[Jay]: you're going to, Hey,

[Daniel]: Oh

[Jay]: can

[Daniel]: yeah,

[Jay]: I come along?

[Daniel]: yeah.

[Jay]: Or, Hey, you know, I get called and the,
Hey, do you want to come on this trip? Yeah.

[Jay]: You've already, how much does it cost
this? Okay. You've already got all the logistics.

[Jay]: I got to book a flight and show up. Yeah.
I'm there.

[Daniel]: basic.

[Jay]: And so this was kind of the same thing
where it was, I mentioned it to Ben. Ben was

[Jay]: coming out here. We had multiple things
going on. And I said, Hey, well, this is already

[Jay]: happening. What do you think about adding
OHP to this? And he's like, that's fantastic

[Jay]: idea. And then one of my really good
friends who will have on the, on the show,

[Jay]: uh, in the next few weeks, I think in
four weeks or so, um, Kevin would, uh, had

[Jay]: a clearing in his schedule to come out.
So he came and stayed as well. And we did OHP

[Jay]: together. And then we have the plan for
doing cave one and cave two, which is a combo

[Jay]: class um, in Florida after Dima. So we're
going to go from Dima is in Louisiana this

[Jay]: year. We go from Dima, drive ourselves
down to Florida and then do cave one and cave

[Jay]: two, um, there in Florida with Ben.

[Daniel]: And Kevin Wood has a pretty boring
day job, right?

[Jay]: Yeah, he does. He, he gets to sit in
the cockpit of a B 52. And, and train others

[Jay]: how to how to fly that thing. So pretty
boring. I love to see pictures that he sends

[Jay]: me of

[Daniel]: You take

[Jay]: another

[Daniel]: off,

[Jay]: day

[Daniel]: you

[Jay]: at

[Daniel]: fly,

[Jay]: the office.

[Daniel]: you land like what?

[Jay]: Yeah. Although I did find out that the
B 52 does not have a restroom on board. So

[Jay]: there's that.

[Daniel]: Interesting. Isn't that what the bay
doors are for?

[Jay]: Yeah,

[Daniel]: Bombay.

[Jay]: it's gotta be a Pilot's P-valve, I think,

[Daniel]: I

[Jay]: installed

[Daniel]: was gonna say,

[Jay]: somehow.

[Daniel]: don't they have pressurized suits?
Just.

[Jay]: Yeah, basically I think P is not the
issue and we'll leave it at

[Daniel]: No,

[Jay]: that.

[Daniel]: no, I'm different kind of bombs we're
talking about. Yeah.

[Jay]: Uh, yeah, you know, so, so yeah, different
kind of, yeah, we get, we'll ask Kevin about

[Jay]: that when he goes to the show. So anyway,
so for me, um, the fact that this was even

[Jay]: a possibility was, was pretty awesome,
but I know you, you asked about the course

[Jay]: so I can explain the course, but I want
to kind of set it up with how excited I was

[Jay]: that this is even in the, in the mix
for 2023 and if things all go well, um, and

[Jay]: I'm able to form well, then I will be
a full. cave diver on my full cave card in

[Jay]: November, which is pretty exciting.

[Daniel]: I mean, no, that's

[Jay]: Yeah, you

[Daniel]: not, no. Hey, so

[Jay]: done the dive.

[Daniel]: are you willing to humble yourself
a little bit?

[Jay]: Oh yeah, absolutely, always.

[Daniel]: So I was just talking about a book
I read earlier and the case studies in that

[Daniel]: book. That's my favorite part. And
it's probably a lot of people's favorite parts.

[Daniel]: So if you had a book full of case
studies, it would probably be boring, but they're

[Daniel]: spaced out just enough at the end
of each chapter.

[Daniel]: So not that you're a case study, but
if you could maybe, I don't know, let us know

[Daniel]: when there was a time when you're
like, well, that didn't go well or. I should

[Daniel]: have done this and I should have done
that, or not that you were surprised you passed,

[Daniel]: but something along the training that
maybe you hadn't been taught yet just didn't

[Daniel]: go quite the right way.

[Jay]: Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, to set this
up, um, cause it's pretty funny is the, the

[Jay]: way that overhead protocols takes place.
This course particularly is in open water.

[Jay]: So we're not actually in an overhead
environment and the goal of this course, it's

[Jay]: a prerequisite to either rec penetration
or cave diving is really to teach us the protocols

[Jay]: for. that type of diving in an open water,
quote unquote, safe environment where we can

[Jay]: surface in 20 feet of water, surface,
talk about it, go back down. So essentially

[Jay]: the setup here is that a cave quote unquote
gets built. So a line is run, a main line is

[Jay]: run in open water. And we are learning
the protocols for following that main line

[Jay]: to making jumps to marking, you know,
those jumps to. Um, you know, setting a, just

[Jay]: even getting into the cave, right. You,
you tie, you take a reel and you tie a, a primary

[Jay]: tie off and you do a secondary tie off
and there's depths and requirements that we

[Jay]: want for that. That are ideal. And so
it's, it's learning how to deal with all that

[Jay]: to, to read the navigation of a cave
or to lay line in a wreck, right? The, the

[Jay]: number one rule in cave diving is a continuous
line to the surface, right? Your continuous

[Jay]: line to the surface, a path back. the
surface. So we're planning it from the exit.

[Jay]: And so there's a lot that you're learning
in how to read, what do opposing arrows mean,

[Jay]: for example? How do we mark our exit
side? How do we tie into the main line? So

[Jay]: there's these sorts of things that are
happening. And it's cool because it's all happening

[Jay]: in open water. And so we can get a ton
done in a day. four or five days, but we can

[Jay]: get a ton done over the course of a day
because we're not diving down inside of the

[Jay]: cave and trying to figure this stuff
out. We're doing it right there in open water.

[Jay]: And then you're also learning how to
deal with failures. So everything from, you

[Jay]: know, a valve bubbles on the back of
your, on your back. And how do you respond

[Jay]: to that as a team? How do you reposition
to, you know, a lost diver or lost teammate?

[Jay]: How do you actually deal with that? What
are some protocols there? And to get to your

[Jay]: humble pie here, one of those failures
is what's called a lost line drill, or what

[Jay]: happens if you lose the line in a no
visibility situation. So set the scene a little

[Jay]: bit here. We're in open water in San
Diego, which in our case, we went to this awesome

[Jay]: dive site called Marine Room, which is
in La Jolla. And the weird part about it all

[Jay]: was that there was surge. So you're dealing
with surge, which you wouldn't be dealing with

[Jay]: in a cave environment, right? I mean,
maybe some flow, but you're definitely not

[Jay]: going to probably deal with surge unless
you're in an ocean cave. And even then, you

[Jay]: know, it's not going to be like an open
water search. So the surge would pick up of

[Jay]: course, at the most inopportune times.
And you just have to learn when you're diving

[Jay]: in surge, as a lot of people that dive
in surge know, like. Yes, it's going to blow

[Jay]: you 10 feet that way, but then a minute
later, it's going to bring you right back.

[Jay]: So just chill out, let it do its thing
and then continue. But it makes following the

[Jay]: line kind of far

[Daniel]: Ha ha

[Jay]: right.

[Daniel]: ha.

[Jay]: And all these sorts of things. So it
was, it was a good challenge, something that,

[Jay]: um, that we had a lot of fun with for,
for all the times that we were diving there,

[Jay]: but in this particular instance, a lost
line drill, the protocol for that is simply,

[Jay]: you know, get to the bottom, essentially
find something to ground on. And you take out

[Jay]: your safety spool and you find something
to tie off to. And in our case, you tie off

[Jay]: that primary tie and you try to find
the secondary tie. So that way you have directional

[Jay]: view in your search. So you can have
a line. And then from that line, you can say,

[Jay]: okay, I'm gonna search this way. And
literally it's just kind of roll the spool

[Jay]: out a little bit. search with your hand,
roll it out a little bit more, search with

[Jay]: your hand, right. And go as, go as far
as you think, okay, this is not going anywhere.

[Jay]: And then roll it back up and now you
have directional case search that way. I'll

[Jay]: search the other way. Right. So on and
so forth until in a lot of ways you get lucky,

[Jay]: uh, you know, and unfortunately that's,
that's the, there's no protocol for, you know,

[Jay]: I can't see and you'll find the line
this way. You have to search for it. So to,

[Jay]: to do these drills, um, we then get put
into a blackout mask. So

[Daniel]: I was

[Jay]: we

[Daniel]: going to

[Jay]: can't

[Daniel]: ask you

[Jay]: see

[Daniel]: about

[Jay]: anything.

[Daniel]: that actually.

[Jay]: Yeah,

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: so no visibility. So literally we get,
it's always fun to see your instructor pull

[Jay]: out the mask and go, hey, here it is.
And you're like, oh man, here we go.

[Daniel]: I

[Jay]: So

[Daniel]: was hoping you were going to forget
this part.

[Jay]: yeah, he asks you, here you go, put the
mask on. So you put it on and then when we're

[Jay]: ready, you pull it over and then all
of a sudden it's all black. I mean, you really

[Jay]: can't see anything. And for me, I'm sure
some people might cheat and have a little.

[Jay]: You know, I want, I want it blacked out
because I want to know what this would feel

[Jay]: like. And so to, to add a little bit
more to the mix, um, then we kind of get disoriented.

[Jay]: So we get spun around. So we don't, you
know, we're disoriented like it. I mean, you

[Jay]: wouldn't probably get completely spun
around in a cave like this, but it's disorienting

[Jay]: when the lights go out. So it gets spun
around, flipped upside down or whatever. And

[Jay]: then bam, the drill starts. So boom.
Okay. I have no idea where I am. Right. I have

[Jay]: no idea. I'm no sense of what's, you
know, left right around me, a sense of what's

[Jay]: up and down because I breathe myself
down to the bottom and go okay. And so I start

[Jay]: searching. And in this instance, there
just wasn't great, anything to grab on to that

[Jay]: I felt like I could tie off to and so
I'm searching, searching. And of course, as

[Jay]: soon as this kind of starts, the search
picks

[Daniel]: search.

[Jay]: up like crazy.

[Daniel]: Knew it.

[Jay]: So boom, I find something. I found something
finally, a rock. I'm like, yes, this is it.

[Jay]: And then boom, I'm blown 20 feet that
way. I'm like, okay, I hope I come back 20

[Jay]: feet the same way. And boom, I come back.
Oh, it's not there anymore. Great. So I'm looking,

[Jay]: and I have to admit, like in those moments,
even though I know I'm in 20 feet, like, logically,

[Jay]: I know I'm in 20 feet of water. I'm in
a blackout mask. You're everything's fine.

[Jay]: My instructor's right there. and knows
where I am, you still feel that panic a little

[Jay]: bit that rises up, like I don't know
where I am, I can't see, this surge is crazy

[Jay]: because I really have no idea where I
am, and I can't get this tie-off to happen.

[Jay]: I just can't find something to tie off
on. And so this goes on what felt like an hour

[Jay]: to me. It's probably three minutes, four
minutes when you look at the video, but it

[Jay]: felt like an hour and I had a few of
those moments where it was just like, okay,

[Jay]: stop and breathe, like stop and breathe.
Like that panic was, I wouldn't say I'm panicked,

[Jay]: but that feeling was setting in. I'm
just like, woo, you know, this is tough. And

[Jay]: so finally I found a, you know, I tried
a few different times to tie off on something

[Jay]: and get blown off of it or my tie off,
you know, just wouldn't, it wouldn't sit in

[Jay]: the spot that I thought was working.
Finally, I found, I don't know, something that

[Jay]: was bigger, like big. big rock it felt
like and I just held on.

[Daniel]: Hahaha.

[Jay]: I held on to it and it blew me this way
and it blew me that way and I'm just working

[Jay]: with my safety spool and got that thing
wrapped around that rock, the big old rock

[Jay]: rolled around, tied it off finally and
then I went searching for the secondary tie

[Jay]: off and found something and was just
able to wrap it real quick around there before

[Jay]: the surge blew me. And then I go off
on my search. That's that, no, no. And then

[Jay]: I get tapped like, okay, you're out.
I never found the line. And so it felt like

[Jay]: I failed, you know, I never found the
line. Whereas my teammate had found the line

[Jay]: in his drill. And we look back at the
video in the video review after all this. And

[Jay]: again, it felt

[Daniel]: close

[Jay]: like

[Daniel]: for you.

[Jay]: the line was like,

[Daniel]: Oh.

[Jay]: if, if you're looking at me right now
on the video, or if you're at home listening

[Jay]: to, or in the car listening to the radio,
imagine the big rock. Um, And I went right

[Jay]: when I went to go look. I don't know
why, but that's where I went. The line was

[Jay]: actually tied to the big rock directly
to my left. So if I had just like even held

[Jay]: onto the rock and done a little search
with my left, I would have found the line.

[Jay]: But I went way off in the wrong direction,
which is again, in a no vis situation, how

[Jay]: in the world would you know, because
you're disoriented. So that one, it taught

[Jay]: me. It had been a minute since I'd been
in a situation where it felt like I don't,

[Jay]: I don't have, it's not that I didn't
have control is that I am not in control of

[Jay]: the situation. I'm disoriented. I can't
see, don't know where the line is and I can't

[Jay]: tie off. And it felt like usually you
could force yourself into like, you know, the

[Jay]: situation like fine, like breathe out,
whatever. So feeling that brought back that

[Jay]: feeling of saying, okay, when all this
stuff happens, remember the primal thing is

[Jay]: to breathe and stop. And it's okay that
you're feeling this, but breathe and yeah.

[Daniel]: There's a couple things going on there,
right? So there's the humility of it all, right?

[Daniel]: If you are one who thinks they know
more than they do, maybe ego is a little bit

[Daniel]: bigger, and then the water is the
great equalizer, right? And if, you know, if

[Daniel]: there would probably be some people
out there who would look back at that video,

[Daniel]: see that the line was tied off on
the left and say, Oh, that was dumb. Not that

[Daniel]: they went right instead of left, but
why is the lion tied off on the left or not

[Daniel]: blaming or taking responsibility for
themselves? And how many times has ego or complacency,

[Daniel]: not to bring it down a notch, but
how many times has that killed the diver? Because

[Daniel]: they didn't have the proper training
going into a scenario that they shouldn't have

[Daniel]: been in, or they didn't have the complete
training, or... They just thought everything

[Daniel]: was fine. They didn't need to do double
checks, triple checks, redundancies, any of

[Daniel]: that. So I think it's just a healthy,
anytime we're in a situation where we're in

[Daniel]: that situation to learn in the first
place. And if we get it right the first time,

[Daniel]: we're not learning anything. So with
the failures comes the learning. And it always

[Daniel]: helps to have that humble pie every
once in a while.

[Jay]: Yeah. I mean, I think on top of that,
I think putting yourselves yourself in that

[Jay]: situation in a safe environment, right?
So experiencing

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: these things in a safe environment gives
you then a reference point when this might

[Jay]: happen for you. Hope to God, it never
happens. Right. And you do everything in your

[Jay]: training to make sure that you don't
end up in that situation. Right. Um, in a,

[Jay]: in a complete lost line, no vis situation,
but when it happens, my brain and my body have

[Jay]: a reference point to refer to even as,
you know, far back as whatever this happens

[Jay]: five years from now, there's still some
experience that I'm carrying with me because

[Jay]: I've trained it and we'll continue to
train it. These, this is not over cave one,

[Jay]: cave two. We do the same thing. Um, in,
in the environment at that point. So, I mean,

[Jay]: I can't stress enough that for me, when
you have experiences or experiential training,

[Jay]: that one of the rules that I love at
UTD is that there are no training dives, all

[Jay]: dives are real dives, because we're diving.
And that's something that's unique about scuba

[Jay]: diving in general, is that when there
is no simulator, So you're learning to fly

[Jay]: a plane, you can get in a simulator and
crash it 50 times, which is exactly what I'll

[Jay]: do when I get in Kevin's B-52 simulator
at some point. Because he said I could do that

[Daniel]: When does

[Jay]: at some

[Daniel]: that

[Jay]: point.

[Daniel]: happen? Because I will be there.

[Jay]: Yeah, exactly. I'm sure I'm gonna crash
the plane, but so what?

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: Right, at that point, I'm not in the
environment. If you're learning to skydive,

[Jay]: you don't start by jumping out of a plane
by yourself, right? You going tandem. You're

[Jay]: now there's indoor skydiving teach you
a lot of the stuff, right? There's all these

[Jay]: things, almost everything else that you
train. There's, there's a way to simulate that

[Jay]: because it's all on land. Well, when
we do diving by the nature of diving, we are

[Jay]: in the environment. We are under the
water, even if it's 10 feet of water, we're

[Jay]: under the water. And so again, the, the
value of experience and there's two fold experiences,

[Jay]: one, it happened. to me not during training.
It's one experience. And then another experience

[Jay]: is it happened to me on purpose during
training. And it gives me a reference point.

[Jay]: And that's the thing that for me I value
so much is that it's not theoretical. And it

[Jay]: wasn't me sitting, showing off skills
on a line. It's me in the environment as close

[Jay]: to what it's going to be minus the surge.
than building experiential knowledge and reaction

[Jay]: to that situation. And I think when it
comes to scuba training, there, there is a

[Jay]: lot of sit on a line and show me a skill
and that skill doesn't correlate to the real

[Jay]: diving because it's simply happening
on the line rather than in the actual situation

[Jay]: you'd be in. And that's one of the things
I really appreciate about the training that

[Jay]: I've received is that training is happening.
in the context of really diving and the instructors

[Jay]: are then using the little mistakes that
you're making as a team or as a diver and showing

[Jay]: the logical conclusion of those things
for a stupid example of this, not stupid, but

[Jay]: a good example of this is, you know,
a teammate of mine was running a really loose

[Jay]: line. And if you've ever seen, you know,
a spool under the water line takes on a life

[Jay]: of its own underwater, right? It just,
it is. So if you run a really loose line as

[Jay]: the lead diver or as the captain who
has the reel, you've got two divers behind

[Jay]: you who are dealing with that loose line.
And if you get a little too close to it, right,

[Jay]: the line has a tendency to do its own
thing. And sure enough, I got a little too

[Jay]: close in one of my courses and it started
to kind of look like it was gonna go around

[Jay]: my fin and the instructor used that.
It went around my fin. I got stuck right in

[Jay]: that moment and off go my other two teammates
down the line, still lining and running their

[Jay]: line. And there I am. And he filmed my
reaction, their reaction, see what would happen.

[Jay]: And you know, the protocol there is try
to free yourself once. And if you can't do

[Jay]: it, stay put. And my initial reaction
was like, okay, I tried to free myself and

[Jay]: now I'm sitting here and I know. I've
got enough gas to sit here infinitely almost

[Jay]: for them to come back. But that panic
kicks in and I had the, I had the want to

[Daniel]: What?

[Jay]: cut the line. It

[Daniel]: Were

[Jay]: cut me

[Daniel]: you,

[Jay]: out of line. Yeah.

[Daniel]: were you cavern at that point or?

[Jay]: No, this was just a tech one or tech
recreational. Um, I should, I think that was

[Jay]: essentials that happened in,

[Daniel]: Ahem.

[Jay]: I don't remember exactly which course,
but the idea here is that we're running a line.

[Jay]: You know, to get back to the exit point
on thirds. like you would off an anchor line,

[Jay]: if current's really strong or something
like that.

[Daniel]: Yeah, I've lifted enough pumps. You
go down with enough rope that if it's not,

[Daniel]: if you don't have control of that
rope, it's just, and then you can't just go,

[Daniel]: oh, let me just grab it and coil up,
because then

[Jay]: Ha ha ha.

[Daniel]: it will get you. It'll take you. The
other thing was, I think, and I've listened

[Daniel]: to enough podcasts on any kind of
training that the harder you train, or maybe

[Daniel]: not the harder you train, but the
more variables you have in your training, then

[Daniel]: when something actually happens, it's
not as difficult or you've been there before

[Daniel]: or so the surge in your training,
you're never likely to come across that when

[Daniel]: you're not, at least not in that intensity
in a cave necessarily. So that was sort of

[Daniel]: an element that if you can do it with
that surge, Just remember to go left, not right.

[Daniel]: No, I'm just kidding. And then, you
know, you should be easier, should be, when

[Daniel]: you actually come across that type
of situation.

[Jay]: Yeah. I mean, again, it's, I don't think
the attempt was to make it artificially harder.

[Jay]: It just, that was the logistics of how
things worked out,

[Daniel]: Sure.

[Jay]: you know?

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: Um, and, and you deal with, with it as
you want to deal with it. Um, and I'm still

[Jay]: learning San Diego in terms of where
to dive. So, you know, find us a 20 foot clear

[Jay]: water and calm water spot. I mean, didn't
exist. Tried, uh, you know,

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: And, uh, I mean, we had to do all kinds
of interesting things to build the cave out

[Jay]: with lots of sandy bottom areas that.
That don't have places to tie off. Um, so,

[Jay]: so it was a challenge in that regard,
cause I just don't know the area well enough

[Jay]: to say here. I got to know it over the
course of two weeks. We dove in a lot of different

[Jay]: locations and checked them out for training.
Um, you know, dive sites, but yeah, I mean,

[Jay]: I, again, I think, I think the value
of experience, get seated. I mean, I kind of

[Jay]: think of it as like, maybe a good analogy
here is the flu shot, right? In the sense that

[Jay]: you're, you're giving, I mean, you know,
not to go into the science behind flu shots,

[Jay]: but essentially, you're giving a, or
does it make a stand because I know there's

[Jay]: a whole anti-vac.

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: Yeah, that's not what I'm saying. I'm
just talking about the analogy.

[Daniel]: Right, right,

[Jay]: You're,

[Daniel]: right.

[Jay]: you're,

[Daniel]: You took a left instead of a right.
You were supposed to go,

[Jay]: yeah,

[Daniel]: no.

[Jay]: exactly. You're giving up the disease,
whatever it is, right?

[Daniel]: Right,

[Jay]: Let's just

[Daniel]: right,

[Jay]: use the flu, because

[Daniel]: live

[Jay]: everyone

[Daniel]: virus.

[Jay]: knows what that is, a live virus, in
a way to then train your body, your immune

[Jay]: system to be able to fight that. So that,
you know, that's the, the science behind that,

[Jay]: whether it be COVID or flu or whatever
things that people want to, wherever you stand

[Jay]: on vaccinations, the, the science behind
it is you give a little bit to train your body

[Jay]: and your immune system how to fight it.
And that's what prevents you from getting more

[Jay]: sick is the, is the logic there, the
scientific logic. So in training within a real

[Jay]: dive and not on a line demonstrating
skills that gives you some of that same live

[Jay]: virus, quote unquote, in a safe environment
within the context of your instructor. And

[Jay]: again, in this case, in 20 feet of water,
not actually in a cave, buried somewhere deep,

[Jay]: not deep in a cave, but deep. If you're
in Florida, most of the caves are deep or whatever,

[Jay]: we're in a very safe environment. It
gives you that immune response to the problems

[Jay]: or the failures that may arise. or the
things that you might face. Now it's not to

[Jay]: say that then we don't go into the cave
and actually do these things there. That's

[Jay]: what cave one and cave two is about,
but in the introduction to it in overhead protocols,

[Jay]: or for example, when we're doing a tech
one dive, I mean, Greg and I told this story

[Jay]: on the last podcast about, you know,
um, you know, the, the Deco bottle getting

[Jay]: stolen from Greg, cause Greg and I

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: thought we were smarter than our instructor
and we weren't. And, um, But that's a real

[Jay]: situation. Those things can come off,
it's a lost ego.

[Daniel]: He'd make a great pic.

[Jay]: Oh, I think so. I think that's where
he learned it

[Daniel]: I

[Jay]: all.

[Daniel]: mean, assuming he's not already.

[Jay]: Yeah, I have to check my safe here since
he stayed with me

[Daniel]: right?

[Jay]: for two weeks.

[Daniel]: Thank you for

[Jay]: Kidding

[Daniel]: watching.

[Jay]: Ben. Check from all my watches. Yeah.
But, uh, you know, that, that's a situation

[Jay]: that then we dealt with it. It was like,
oh, you don't have a deco bob. At first it

[Jay]: was jarring. And then after we dealt
with it, it was funny because you're kind of

[Jay]: like, geez, yeah, he got us good on that
one. But now I know if I want to observe the

[Jay]: full diver before you call a deco stop.
And make sure they have the bottle because

[Jay]: we could have caught it a lot earlier.
But then two, I have experience in saying,

[Jay]: if this ever happened in real life, how
do we react to it? It's the same thing, you

[Jay]: know, in now over, or, you know, in the
lost line, how you react to it. I mean, hopefully

[Jay]: the surge isn't throwing you everywhere,
but eventually I figured it out. Eventually

[Jay]: I figured out how to talk. And if I had
another five minutes, I probably would have

[Jay]: found the line. Right. And you just cut,
cut the drill because I got the point, right.

[Jay]: So again, the value of real experiences
in a safe environment is a lot like giving

[Jay]: a little bit of the virus in a safe dose
so that your immune response, or in this case,

[Jay]: your emergency response to dealing with
those things, you know, our bodies know what

[Jay]: to do because they've seen it before,
same thing becomes true in your scuba training.

[Jay]: our bodies and our minds. That's something
that we don't really use when we're fighting

[Jay]: a disease is we can't, well, again, we're
going to get into the whole thing, but you

[Jay]: know, we, we don't

[Daniel]: I

[Jay]: fight

[Daniel]: mean, you

[Jay]: the

[Daniel]: can

[Jay]: disease with our mind, positive thinking,

[Daniel]: remain

[Jay]: but

[Daniel]: positive and it should

[Jay]: yeah.

[Daniel]: certainly help it. But then you'll
have the mechanical, if that's the right term,

[Daniel]: if something goes wrong. If you say,
all right, this is going wrong, here's the

[Daniel]: mechanical process in which to fix
it. But then there's a variable that could

[Daniel]: be added into that, like a silt out.
So you've got a problem. you've got an air

[Daniel]: problem, a gas problem, but now you're
in a complete silt out. So you know how to

[Daniel]: fix it if you could see it, but now
you can't see it. So again, the harder you

[Daniel]: train or, and again, I don't think
that's the right word, but the more you train,

[Daniel]: the more difficult the training, when
something happens, then you're just better

[Daniel]: prepared to deal with it.

[Jay]: Yeah. And I think one of the things to
that point is, is that there are At least I've

[Jay]: learned there are protocol divers that
will react or you can become, let me put it

[Jay]: this way, you can become a protocol diver,
which is a rote response to a problem, if that

[Jay]: makes sense. So

[Daniel]: Yeah, sure.

[Jay]: you have a protocol to solve the problem
and that's it. And one of the things again,

[Jay]: I appreciate in the training I've received
is the goal is not the protocol. The goal is,

[Jay]: is the thinking diver and the thinking
team. And so the reaction then becomes about

[Jay]: the brain and how we're processing this
together, then it, then it does the protocol.

[Jay]: And one of the things I appreciated in
some of the training I got was look like th

[Jay]: there isn't a wrong way to solve the
problem. If you get out, there are simply more

[Jay]: efficient ways that we can solve problems.
So if you decide to do a, a gas share on a

[Jay]: fixable right post, and exit the dive,
okay, you got out. You planned for it and your

[Jay]: gas plan, great. But more efficient would
be, why don't you just fix the right post?

[Jay]: Like I do screw in the first stage and
you could have continued your dive and instead

[Jay]: you spent all that money or

[Daniel]: Well,

[Jay]: whatever effort to get down there.

[Daniel]: that lends itself to the control of
the emotions and the panic. And if you have

[Daniel]: enough people, then I would imagine
that dynamic is able to, depending on each

[Daniel]: one's responsibility, is able to solve
that problem, right? But if you're diving with

[Daniel]: a single buddy, and maybe you've dived
with this person for years or just... a lot

[Daniel]: of dives, but you've never had a problem.
You've never come across a situation that required

[Daniel]: some nuance to your problem solving.
And then, you know, you don't know what's gonna

[Daniel]: happen until it happens. And then
that could be, it could be the equivalent of

[Daniel]: sharing gas and going to the surface.
The equivalent could be bolting to the surface

[Daniel]: because that's just where my brain
goes. I'm just gonna go because I know there's

[Daniel]: air. my buddy will be okay or whatever
the case may be. So the training, and it's

[Daniel]: hard to train in that situation if
you don't have the right, I guess, structure,

[Daniel]: the right infrastructure for that
sort of thing. But I think if you asked every

[Daniel]: scuba diver a yes or no question regarding
training, just make up a question. It'll probably

[Daniel]: get the same answer because no scuba
diver should ever be like, I'm good. I mean,

[Daniel]: I'm good. If I dive within this environment,
then I don't need any more training. Well,

[Daniel]: that's not entirely accurate. You
know, you should always be, I mean, every dive

[Daniel]: is a training dive, but if you're
diving at 30 feet and going south for 2,000

[Daniel]: kicks and coming back, it's like,
you know, what's gonna happen? Who are you

[Daniel]: diving with? The environment might
be the same, but you know, maybe you had, I

[Daniel]: don't know, maybe you had a couple
of drinks last night and it's gonna affect

[Daniel]: your... reaction on this dive and
then anyway a million different scenarios there

[Daniel]: but I think training is key no matter
what.

[Jay]: Yeah. And I think being open to, you
know, looking at it more as a continuation

[Jay]: rather than a

[Daniel]: Hmm.

[Jay]: checklist in the sense that like,

[Daniel]: It's a lifestyle, not a diet.

[Jay]: yeah, that's a good way to put it. Yeah.
Cause I mean, look, I mean, for me, I've, I've

[Jay]: trained technical diving. I've done technical
diving. I know how to react to a failure on

[Jay]: my twin set. But even I need to be put
in that situation because I can take a hundred

[Jay]: dives on my twin set and nothing goes
wrong. And then I get back into training, right?

[Jay]: And boom, you go, oh yeah, is it right
or left? What do I need to do? And although

[Jay]: I know what to do, I haven't done it
in a hundred dives because I haven't had that

[Jay]: reality. Like when there's a failure
in tech, you know, or even in the silver-eyed

[Jay]: protocols, there's a, you know, an instructor
brings down the air gun. And you don't see

[Jay]: it coming. And all of a sudden you hear
the bubbles exactly how it would be. Um, and,

[Jay]: and again, you can do as many valve drills
as you want and think through those things,

[Jay]: but then when the bubbles come, which
is something you don't want to go and simulate

[Jay]: yourself, like let's

[Daniel]: Right.

[Jay]: break the manifold just so I can make
sure I'm trained on this. So it's, so it's

[Jay]: a continuation. It's not like check.
I know how, what to do. If I hear bubbles on

[Jay]: my right side, it's continuing to train
those things. on an ongoing basis and to put

[Jay]: yourself in those situations. And yeah,
it might be as routine now for me to, which

[Jay]: is not, I'm not saying that, but it might
be as routine now for me to, to deal with a

[Jay]: manifold failure as it would be for me
to deploy a backup light, for example. Um,

[Jay]: but it's still something I should be
doing in part of the training. And some of

[Jay]: that stuff, you, you just, I can, I can
simulate a light failure all day long and deploy

[Jay]: a backup light and deploy a second one.
Um, and that's easy enough to do, but, but

[Jay]: simulating bubbles coming out, uh, of,
of which side and making a guess it's a little

[Jay]: harder for, for that. And so I look at
it as, you know, no matter where, where you

[Jay]: are in your diving or wherever I am in
my diving, wherever I think I am, it kind of

[Jay]: comes back to the. The immutable truth
of scuba diving is as soon as you feel like

[Jay]: you're on the high horse, get ready for
the fall. And that's. that's a lifestyle choice

[Jay]: to continue to put yourself in the situation
to feel the fall and not, not get, I think

[Jay]: Gareth Locke talks about, uh, I don't
know if he talks about it in the same way,

[Jay]: but the, the idea being risk homeostasis
where, yeah, you do the same 30 foot, 60 foot

[Jay]: dive or man, if you're tech diver, you
do the same, you know, 200 foot dip on the

[Jay]: same boat, uh, every month. And it gets
comfortable. to the point where you are normalizing

[Jay]: the risky things that you might be doing.
When you change the environment or you change

[Jay]: the conditions, or you change the visibility,
which are part of the conditions, so on and

[Jay]: so forth. Now you're dealing with something
that, that presents a different risk. And it's

[Jay]: not just the dip in Lake Travis and swim,
you know, say hi to Jim, the rock and Fran,

[Jay]: the rock and the other rock that you
know, you know, you want to be able to train

[Jay]: for those situations that again, we're
in the wild. And that's the thing with

[Daniel]: I feel like it seems odd that if you
do the same dive for a year, once a week, in

[Daniel]: your mind you think theoretically
people will think or do think nothing's gonna

[Daniel]: happen because nothing happened the

[Jay]: Exactly.

[Daniel]: last time, the last five times. But
in reality, it should absolutely be the other

[Daniel]: way around. You're just getting closer
and closer. Like if you never get your reg

[Daniel]: set. serviced it should be closer
and closer to it failing. So I don't know why

[Daniel]: we it's weird that we think that oh
it didn't happen last time it's not going to

[Daniel]: happen this time.

[Jay]: Yeah, like equipment or buddy checks
in, um, I think is

[Daniel]: Oh

[Jay]: what

[Daniel]: yeah,

[Jay]: a lot

[Daniel]: you're

[Jay]: of,

[Daniel]: fine. You look good. We're good. Let's
go.

[Jay]: yeah, that's the prime example in my
mind. There are so many things that can be

[Jay]: solved in an

[Daniel]: prevented.

[Jay]: equipment match and prevent it, yeah,

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: before you ever hit the water. That the
fact that, that those get skipped over because

[Jay]: I'm an event is a case in point to what
you're saying is the, the more and more we

[Jay]: normalize. the fact that we didn't do
a buddy check last time and no one died. Therefore

[Jay]: we don't need to do a buddy check this
time because no one will die. Right. It's kind

[Jay]: of the, the logical logic behind it all
is exactly what you're saying. You're hurtling

[Jay]: closer and closer towards the sun. Like

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: you're going to get burned. Like that's,
I was actually coaching one of my students

[Jay]: in, we ran an essentials of tech course,
um, Ben and I co-taught that and you know,

[Jay]: we were getting into the weeds. with
this particular student about, um, waiting.

[Jay]: And it's an easy place to get into the
weeds because, um, you know, you start to know

[Jay]: when you, when you go through some of
the training that we're doing, you actually

[Jay]: know that when you're a pound or two
light, it's crazy, but you, you know that and

[Jay]: you actually learn. Like the exact waiting
for your, you know, undergarments or your,

[Jay]: your wetsuit, whatever you're diving
in the exact way we measure, right? What is

[Jay]: your rig actually way underwater? We.
use a fish scale and measure it, right? And

[Jay]: so she was kind of going down the rabbit
hole of down to the pound. And I said, look,

[Jay]: like I get it, but that's a really good
like thing to think about, but it's also like

[Jay]: chasing the white dragon or whatever,
the whatever the phrase

[Daniel]: Hahaha

[Jay]: is, right? Is that like, look conditions,
you know, did you eat a big meal last night?

[Jay]: You know, like you have a little more
bioprene maybe that today or, you know, did

[Jay]: you... you know, is it colder? Are you
did you change undergarments? Are you diving

[Jay]: the same twin set? Or is it you know,

[Daniel]: or

[Jay]: you switched to aluminum's right?

[Daniel]: back to the bomb topic. You haven't

[Jay]: Yeah, you haven't

[Daniel]: dropped

[Jay]: released,

[Daniel]: any bombs

[Jay]: uh,

[Daniel]: yet, no. Ha ha

[Jay]: in a while.

[Daniel]: ha.

[Jay]: You haven't, you haven't, your B 52 hasn't
been out of the, out of the hanger yet. Um,

[Jay]: you know, whatever. So, so waiting is
going to be variable, you know, salt water,

[Jay]: yeah, and whatever,

[Daniel]: Yeah,

[Jay]: 35,

[Daniel]: sure.

[Jay]: whatever. Like, I mean, it changes, it
shifts. And so like, you want to be within

[Jay]: a range. We know our lungs are about
four pounds. We can, we can deal with on a

[Jay]: shift with our lungs. So we want to have
a range. Now, if you dive in the same place,

[Jay]: a hundred dives every year, yeah, you
should know you're waiting for that spot. But

[Jay]: if I'm on a boat, I'm going to take the
first dive and go like, ooh, I feel a couple

[Jay]: of pounds light. Let me throw a couple
more pounds on, right? I want to be within

[Jay]: that range. I said, but the things to
obsess over are the things that there are no

[Jay]: variables to. An equipment check or a
buddy check, there is no variable. You either

[Jay]: do it or you don't. And that's something
to obsess over and to be obsessive about, right?

[Jay]: And doing it the same way over and over
again, so that it becomes something that you

[Jay]: are disciplined in doing gas planning.
We can't change the amount of gas we have under

[Jay]: the water. I mean, I guess we can if
we've staged bottles and things, but, but if

[Jay]: we'd haven't done gas planning and we're
not clear about is this a half usable, all

[Jay]: usable thirds usable situation and what
rock bottom is Which in our, in my language,

[Jay]: rock bottom is enough gas to, to take
two divers to the surface or to the next available

[Jay]: gas source in a, in a no gas available
situation, that's something that, that there

[Jay]: is no variable to really, unless the
dive plan gets completely screwed at some point

[Jay]: for whatever reason, and then we're able
to do that recalculation or water as a team.

[Jay]: So those are things to obsess over is
the things that, that are. Um, I think that

[Jay]: are relatable back to that risk homeostasis,
which is to say, not normalizing things that

[Jay]: are super simple that we skip that turn
out to be super risky.

[Daniel]: Yeah. So what's next?

[Jay]: Yeah. So a lot of, a lot of topics in
this one. This is a good, a good, a good one.

[Jay]: Yeah. So for me, I'm, I'm super happy.
So I passed overhead protocols, which is really

[Jay]: kind of a pass fail. It's not a certification,
but it's a prereq class. So I'm cleared for

[Jay]: the next step. And so after DEMA this
year, which is in, I think I already mentioned

[Jay]: is in New Orleans, we're going to go
down to. Florida and excited about hubbing

[Jay]: out of out of Cape country there. And
we are going to do cave one and cave two, which

[Jay]: is if,

[Daniel]: Both of them.

[Jay]: yeah, if you look at UTD standards, uh,
cave one is really the only, I think it is

[Jay]: the only course that has a time limit
on it in terms of like, if you're

[Daniel]: interesting.

[Jay]: certified cave one and expires, that's
the only one that expires.

[Daniel]: Oh, oh, not the course itself,

[Jay]: No, no,

[Daniel]: like a test,

[Jay]: it's an expiring

[Daniel]: okay.

[Jay]: certification. And the reason that cave
one is even in the standards from what I understand

[Jay]: is because it's taking into account if
like a hurricane comes through and we can't

[Jay]: finish full cave or something like that,
at least you can get into the environment and

[Jay]: practice. And so it's a rare certification.
So cave two is full cave, full navigation within

[Jay]: the cave, no decompression and obviously
not a rebreather yet in the cave. But that's

[Jay]: cave two is full cave. And so the way
that it's done is cave one, cave two are combined,

[Jay]: or I forget how many days, five or six
days in the environment. And so that will be

[Jay]: November.

[Daniel]: What is the course with full cave
and decompression?

[Jay]: Um, I have to look it up off the top
of my head. I couldn't tell you. I think that,

[Jay]: um, cave two introduces, um, I'd have
to look it up. I think it introduces either.

[Jay]: I don't think it introduces decompression,
but it introduces, I think, stages. I have

[Jay]: to look it up. I don't remember. I don't
know off the top of

[Daniel]: No,

[Jay]: my

[Daniel]: I'm

[Jay]: head,

[Daniel]: just curious.

[Jay]: but yeah,

[Daniel]: Just

[Jay]: KF2.

[Daniel]: curious.

[Jay]: So, that's one part of my, and so by
the end of the year, again, if fall things

[Jay]: go according to plan in terms of my performance
and, you know, I'm not a whole lot of risk,

[Jay]: I think, in that part of the country
for that time of the year of not being able

[Jay]: to finish because of the environment.
Then at the end of this year, I will have,

[Jay]: I will have achieved my first scuba goal,
which was to become a certified cave diver.

[Jay]: And I'm pretty excited

[Daniel]: a

[Jay]: about

[Daniel]: year

[Jay]: that.

[Daniel]: and at least six months in advance

[Jay]: at least six months in advance

[Daniel]: based

[Jay]: of them.

[Daniel]: on your original plan, yeah.

[Jay]: Yeah. And then

[Daniel]: Awesome,

[Jay]: I have

[Daniel]: man.

[Jay]: one other

[Daniel]: Oh, okay.

[Jay]: So the other is there is a, and we'll
see how this all plays out. But the other thing

[Jay]: that I've been moving towards, so my
first goal in diving was after I was in Atzenote

[Jay]: was to get CAVE certified and to be able
to be in that environment. And as time has

[Jay]: progressed in that, my ultimate goal
has been to explore. I wanna get to a place

[Jay]: where I can. explore and I've done some
of that. Um, but certainly not to the extent

[Jay]: that I would like to. And the idea with
exploration is that there are lots of tools

[Jay]: available to you. And you want to be
able to utilize the tool that is best suited

[Jay]: for that job. So whether that be, you
know, single tank, you know, back mount doubles,

[Jay]: doubles and you know, stages, decompression
diving, cave, whatever it would be. That my

[Jay]: skillset and my ability to use these
tools wouldn't hamper the explorations, whatever

[Jay]: the exploration needs, I can utilize
that tool. That's been kind of the, the putting

[Jay]: tools in my backpack view of, of my training
and, and all that. So one of those tools that

[Jay]: has become extremely relevant to me now
that I'm in San Diego and have done some diving

[Jay]: here has been, Hey, like there's some
really interesting things that are deep here

[Jay]: and gas and, and gas mixing now become
limitations to being able to see what those

[Jay]: things are to explore those things down
there or what I'm not exploring, like it's

[Jay]: never been seen before, but exploring
for myself. And so there are a lot of applications

[Jay]: here that a rebreather makes sense, um,
as the tool to use to go and make those types

[Jay]: of dives.

[Daniel]: Is, sorry to interrupt the flow. Does
Jack dive re-read? Okay,

[Jay]: He does. I believe

[Daniel]: I think

[Jay]: he

[Daniel]: I thought

[Jay]: is

[Daniel]: I remember

[Jay]: on

[Daniel]: that.

[Jay]: a, he told me, I don't wanna misspeak
for him, but I think he's

[Daniel]: know

[Jay]: on

[Daniel]: this

[Jay]: a kiss

[Daniel]: one.

[Jay]: sidewinder, if I believe. Or he's on
a kiss rebreather and he's configured for backbounce,

[Jay]: I don't remember. But yeah, some of these
other folks, which is that I've dealt with

[Jay]: are also on rebreather, whether rebos
or other. And so one, I have people that I

[Jay]: can die with and two, there are, clear
applications for that tool here. That would

[Jay]: be super interesting to me. So

[Daniel]: Yeah,

[Jay]: anyway,

[Daniel]: for sure.

[Jay]: in the long story short, there is a maybe
or a likelihood, put it that way, that training

[Jay]: could also take place early December
after Cave. We'll see if that's gonna be the

[Jay]: case and there's a lot of logistics to
work out. on that, but I'm kind of settling

[Jay]: in on, and I'm sure we're going to get
a ton of comments on this. So feel free to

[Jay]: leave me your opinion.

[Daniel]: I'm

[Jay]: I'm

[Daniel]: out.

[Jay]: taking it all into account right now,
but so far in my research and things, I've

[Jay]: really been drawn to the SF2, the Scubaforce
SF2 Re-Breather back-mounted. There's also

[Jay]: a configuration to convert that into
a side mount unit if needed. And I just really

[Jay]: love the simplicity of that unit and
what it kind of looks like. And this is why

[Jay]: I'm saying there's going to be a thousand
comments of everyone

[Daniel]: I

[Jay]: has

[Daniel]: was thinking.

[Jay]: their opinion.

[Daniel]: and I might edit this comment out.

[Jay]: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

[Daniel]: But maybe you could wear the SF2 shirt
every episode.

[Jay]: Yes, yes, that's I'll call them to get
that.

[Daniel]: Ha ha ha.

[Jay]: Um, yes, I'll wear that one or my, uh,
my, uh, my light monkey shirt when I eventually

[Jay]: get it

[Daniel]: Oh yeah,

[Jay]: someday.

[Daniel]: well that, yeah.

[Jay]: But yeah, so that, that's an, a

[Daniel]: Awesome.

[Jay]: possibility as well, which is. Again,
all these things were not in my plans for 2023.

[Jay]: I literally thought, and I still, you
know, my ultimate plan is to get established

[Jay]: here

[Daniel]: Well,

[Jay]: and that's how.

[Daniel]: shoot, man, then what's happening
in 2024?

[Jay]: dive, man. One of my applications for
rebreather diving is I mentioned it on the

[Jay]: Desert Island Dives, not the archeology
edition, but the other one, which is the big

[Jay]: O and the swim through

[Daniel]: Oh.

[Jay]: in the hangar bay, the riscany.

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: So that's a perfect application for a
rebreather because for many reasons,

[Daniel]: Well,

[Jay]: but that would be

[Daniel]: if

[Jay]: a good

[Daniel]: you

[Jay]: one.

[Daniel]: don't take video, you will have to
go back.

[Jay]: Yeah, there you go. Exactly. Yeah. Oh,
and then the highlight too, I forgot to mention

[Jay]: the highlight from these last two weeks,
um, which was super fun during our essentials

[Jay]: course that I was instructing on the
last day, we were doing some more dives together,

[Jay]: um, and we decided to go to La Jolla
Cove. And, um, right now it's, well, it's always

[Jay]: the case that there are sea lions and
seals there.

[Daniel]: Oh, yeah, I saw the video.

[Jay]: Yeah, but right now

[Daniel]: That's.

[Jay]: there's a lot of, uh, they're pumping
as well, or the pups are out. And so we got

[Jay]: to take, uh, you know, some, a lot of
fun diving with the sea lions and.

[Daniel]: Did you notice that, I mean, are moms
protective of their pups?

[Jay]: It's hard to read, like I was asking
actually, one of the buddies I made is a lifeguard.

[Jay]: I think he's a lieutenant or some high
up in a lifeguard about that and how to read

[Jay]: their reactions. Cause they're.

[Daniel]: Because that one video came right
at you, snapped and then left.

[Jay]: Yeah. So, so, so some people read that
when you see that video as they see the bubbles

[Jay]: and they're blowing bubbles along with
you, other people, and the way I read that

[Jay]: video was a get the heck out of my space.

[Daniel]: It looked like a false charge. I mean,
it looked like

[Jay]: Yeah, like

[Daniel]: a

[Jay]: get

[Daniel]: bear

[Jay]: out of here.

[Daniel]: false charge. Yeah.

[Jay]: Yeah, like that's how I read it. And
I

[Daniel]: That's

[Jay]: fully

[Daniel]: probably

[Jay]: didn't

[Daniel]: the

[Jay]: expect,

[Daniel]: safer way to read it.

[Jay]: yeah, yeah. So I mean, you know, it's
a wild animal. So, you know, you don't know.

[Jay]: And we weren't

[Daniel]: Oh, you mean

[Jay]: like,

[Daniel]: I shouldn't go up to it and take a
selfie right next to something

[Jay]: yeah.

[Daniel]: that's

[Jay]: And you

[Daniel]: a

[Jay]: actually

[Daniel]: thousand

[Jay]: see

[Daniel]: pounds?

[Jay]: this. I mean, it's wild, but

[Daniel]: Jeez.

[Jay]: no, we were in a respectful, like we
didn't go chasing them. We let them kind of,

[Jay]: when we saw them, let them... have their
space and try to capture. I have some other

[Jay]: video I have to share, which is beautiful
of them in their own space playing and things.

[Jay]: But then there's lots of stories of the
divers have here of the sea lions coming and

[Jay]: pulling on their fins and being playful
and this thing. So, you know, you don't know.

[Jay]: And it kind of comes back to the whole
thing of like, better safe than sorry. And

[Jay]: so with all marine life and all aquatic
life, take pictures. Um, don't put your hands

[Jay]: on, uh, don't, you know, go chasing,
chasing something and it's in its home environment.

[Jay]: Um, that makes it feel threatened. I
tell my girls all the time, you know, if you,

[Jay]: if you leave something alone and give
it space and it's going to do the same to you

[Jay]: and, you know, all that. And, um, but
yeah, that video that we got a bunch of them,

[Jay]: but that one in particular that you're
mentioning, I read that as like, don't

[Daniel]: Yep.

[Jay]: you're not welcome here.

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: but others saw it and said, oh, they're
blowing bubbles because they see your bubbles.

[Jay]: And these are experienced, so I don't
know, but I'll tell you what I didn't do was

[Jay]: go and chase that sea lion

[Daniel]: Good luck.

[Jay]: afterwards.

[Daniel]: Good luck in keeping up with him.

[Jay]: Oh, I know they must just be behind us
being like, look at this idiot. You

[Daniel]: Yeah,

[Jay]: know, they're so graceful

[Daniel]: internet.

[Jay]: in the water. So super highlight. And
if you're out there and you're wanting to dive

[Jay]: with sea lions here in San Diego, I'm
happy to jump in the water with you. If you

[Jay]: make that journey or you live here, um,
it's, it's an awesome experience. It really

[Jay]: was. Cause I mean, they're everywhere
and beautiful kelp forest, uh, around that

[Jay]: side of the Cove and really nice diving.
The visibility on that particular day was pretty

[Jay]: good. We got in another day. Um, you
know, a few days later and visibility had just

[Jay]: gone to,

[Daniel]: on

[Jay]: you know,

[Daniel]: that.

[Jay]: bad. Um, so it depends on the day, but
yeah.

[Daniel]: Cool, man. I'm super excited. And
I am going to ask that you share more pictures

[Daniel]: than you do.

[Jay]: Yeah, that's a good, that's a good,

[Daniel]: How about that?

[Jay]: that's a good.

[Daniel]: I was going to ask you that while
we're not recording, but on the recording,

[Daniel]: I'm going to say, I need more pictures.

[Jay]: I know, I know. I'm trying, I really
am. And I

[Daniel]: Ha

[Jay]: actually

[Daniel]: ha

[Jay]: did

[Daniel]: ha!

[Jay]: post for myself. I did share a lot

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: of posts on Instagram. So for myself,
that was a lot, but it definitely wasn't

[Daniel]: Yeah, well,

[Jay]: enough.

[Daniel]: it's true.

[Jay]: Ha ha ha.

[Daniel]: Twice a year, I think is what you
do. It's about right.

[Jay]: Yeah, I need to get better at it. So,
hey, if you're a social media expert out there

[Jay]: and you know, a good regiment to, to
get me to train me in that social media environment,

[Jay]: um, of how to be more disciplined, I
would appreciate a shout out to me and a kick

[Jay]: in my rear to get that stuff done.

[Daniel]: Me too, actually. So we can zoom with
that person

[Jay]: Yeah.

[Daniel]: conference call.

[Jay]: Exactly.

[Daniel]: Cool, man. I'm really excited to see
what happens. I like how 2024 is not happening

[Daniel]: the way you planned it in a good way.
I hope the house is settling in. You're settling

[Daniel]: into the house, all of the above.
So yeah, glad we got this down for posterity.

[Jay]: That's right. Yeah. And I think maybe
it would be fun to do. I think this was your

[Jay]: idea to do one when cave one and cave
two

[Daniel]: Oh yeah, this is series.

[Jay]: are

[Daniel]: We'll,

[Jay]: over,

[Daniel]: we'll

[Jay]: do

[Daniel]: turn

[Jay]: a

[Daniel]: this

[Jay]: little

[Daniel]: into

[Jay]: couple mini series here. It'd be fun.

[Daniel]: jade's yellow brick road or maybe
the red one. No one knows where the red one

[Daniel]: goes. Do you see that?

[Jay]: Yeah, yeah, that's

[Daniel]: There's

[Jay]: true.

[Daniel]: a,

[Jay]: I don't

[Daniel]: just

[Jay]: know.

[Daniel]: saying,

[Jay]: Yeah. No, I

[Daniel]: just

[Jay]: mean,

[Daniel]: saying.

[Jay]: like I said, I'm super blessed and, and
surprised that this was even an opportunity

[Jay]: this year. And I said, I'm really thankful
to my good friend, Kevin Wood as well. Because

[Jay]: he's, I took on the planning for OHP
and all the things that happened here. This

[Jay]: is my home base. But he's taken on all
the planning for Cave 1 and Cave 2 in Florida.

[Jay]: And so again, I kind of can ride his
coattails on that. And so I, again, if I had

[Jay]: to take on all the planning logistics
for all that, I probably wouldn't be doing

[Jay]: it just because it's, you know, one

[Daniel]: Yeah,

[Jay]: of those things

[Daniel]: sure.

[Jay]: this year. Um, but the fact that it just
dovetails off of DMA, I'm going to be a DMA

[Jay]: anyways. Um, you know, it's not too far
of a drive down to Florida from there. Like

[Jay]: all of it kind of works out. And so I'm
thankful to a lot of people who are handling

[Jay]: some of the logistics for me to be able
to. to join in and then like I said, if things

[Jay]: go well, which I anticipate they will,
I don't have any reason to think that they

[Jay]: won't, then yeah, then by the end of
this year, I'll be full on CAVE certified,

[Jay]: which is a goal for sure, but the bigger
goal is to dive in the CAVE. So then I'll be

[Jay]: allowed

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: to then dive in the CAVEs and that's
gonna be make for a fun 2024. And then if the

[Jay]: Reader thing comes through as well, then
there's something to work towards in terms

[Jay]: of. Being able to bring that unit into
an overhead environment, which is more training,

[Jay]: so it's not, it's not like you get rebreather
and then, Hey, go down some caves now that's

[Jay]: rebreather. One is same limits as rec
one a hundred feet, you know, open water, no

[Jay]: overhead. And so there's training to
do on that unit and hours to put on it, to

[Jay]: be able to bring in the case so you

[Daniel]: I

[Jay]: could

[Daniel]: think

[Jay]: see it.

[Daniel]: you did. You did 100 feet, Rec1. You're
not supposed to do 100 feet.

[Jay]: Yeah. What dive five, I think it was
like six. Hey, what's down at a hundred feet

[Jay]: or a hundred. I think

[Daniel]: Let's

[Jay]: it was

[Daniel]: go.

[Jay]: 130 was the, and

[Daniel]: I

[Jay]: I

[Daniel]: don't know what

[Jay]: actually

[Daniel]: you're

[Jay]: told

[Daniel]: talking

[Jay]: that

[Daniel]: about.

[Jay]: story the other

[Daniel]: No.

[Jay]: day. I won't tell it now, but I told
the story where I was like hanging my, my hand

[Jay]: down to hit that 130.

[Daniel]: Oh, oh, I thought it was the, I thought
it was the compass fail.

[Jay]: Oh no, gosh, that was a whole nother
situation, but that wasn't deep. That was,

[Jay]: that was just,

[Daniel]: Oh, it wasn't?

[Jay]: no, we were, we were mid water at like
60 feet

[Daniel]: 60p,

[Jay]: and

[Daniel]: okay.

[Jay]: couldn't see anything in vertigo and
all the other things kicked in. So, but that's

[Daniel]: fun

[Jay]: a whole

[Daniel]: stuff.

[Jay]: different story. No, the deep one was,
was well, yeah, we'll have to tell another

[Jay]: story. So the pick on you, but yeah,
I remember the first time it was like, Hey,

[Jay]: how deep can we go? You're like, yeah,
I've been deep in a long time. What's why not?

[Jay]: And

[Daniel]: Yeah,

[Jay]: in my

[Daniel]: let's

[Jay]: mind,

[Daniel]: go.

[Jay]: I'm going, oh, well, I'm, I'm with a
dive master. Like,

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: you know, I'm, I'm fully safe. And we
did. And then there was like, I think there

[Jay]: was another buddy separation. And I remember
hanging my hand

[Daniel]: Not from

[Jay]: down.

[Daniel]: me though.

[Jay]: No, no,

[Daniel]: Not from

[Jay]: we

[Daniel]: me,

[Jay]: lost

[Daniel]: not from

[Jay]: some

[Daniel]: me that

[Jay]: other

[Daniel]: time.

[Jay]: guy

[Daniel]: Yeah. No,

[Jay]: who

[Daniel]: because.

[Jay]: ended up, we lose, we lost him a lot,
not because we lost him because he would just

[Jay]: peel off and do his own thing. And then.

[Daniel]: Oh yeah.

[Jay]: I remember his name now, but I'm not
going to mention on the podcast, but there

[Jay]: was a guy.

[Daniel]: No, that's fine. You tell me afterwards.

[Jay]: Yeah, there was a

[Daniel]: I'm

[Jay]: guy.

[Daniel]: vaguely. Yeah.

[Jay]: Anyway, long story short, yeah, I remember
like getting down to 130 feet on

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: air and hanging my watch down to get
it as deep as possible just to like show it

[Jay]: on my, you know, my computer and just,
you know, no narc out, but just kind of, okay,

[Jay]: that was fun for five minutes and now.

[Daniel]: No,

[Jay]: We have enough gas.

[Daniel]: I mean, I remember a line. There was
a line there. Wasn't the line go all the way

[Daniel]: down or? Yeah.

[Jay]: Yeah, there was a buoy that a line went,
well a line went down to another line that

[Jay]: went down to another line

[Daniel]: Yeah,

[Jay]: that took us

[Daniel]: right.

[Jay]: all the way down. Yeah.

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: But

[Daniel]: So.

[Jay]: anyway.

[Daniel]: All right, man. Well, great catching
up. I love you on the podcast. I can't wait

[Daniel]: for the next episode.

[Jay]: Yes. Yeah. And looking ahead, so we have
the final episode with Greg coming up, which

[Jay]: I think is going to be great. And then
we've got three with Kevin Wood. So he'll come

[Jay]: onto the show, which is exciting. And
learn a little bit about some of the similarities,

[Jay]: maybe between B-52 training

[Daniel]: It's boring day job, yep.

[Jay]: and Scuba. And we have a ton of stories
because we've dove a ton together and been

[Jay]: in a lot of these trainings together.
So it'll be fun, hopefully fun episodes. And

[Jay]: then Ben Boss will actually be back on
the show as well at some point. We're gonna

[Jay]: talk about designing trainings for adults,
which is gonna be interesting amongst other

[Daniel]: And

[Jay]: things.

[Daniel]: then after that,

[Jay]: We don't know.

[Daniel]: who knows?

[Jay]: Well, we know we have a couple more of
this series of cave and then we don't know

[Jay]: what's gonna happen because we haven't

[Daniel]: We

[Jay]: invited

[Daniel]: know.

[Jay]: any other guest co-hosts.

[Daniel]: I think we know what we want to have.

[Jay]: Yes, but we're not ready to talk about
that

[Daniel]: No,

[Jay]: yet.

[Daniel]: we are not.

[Jay]: Yeah, so it's been a weird season two.
I can't wait to do a season two recap and

[Daniel]: Mm.

[Jay]: just talk about how this season has been
a very challenging

[Daniel]: and

[Jay]: and

[Daniel]: interesting,

[Jay]: very rewarding

[Daniel]: yeah.

[Jay]: season at the same time.

[Daniel]: Sure.

[Jay]: But yeah,

[Daniel]: Lot of practice, it's good practice.

[Jay]: it

[Daniel]: Every

[Jay]: is.

[Daniel]: episode is a training episode. Ha
ha ha.

[Jay]: That is not the situation you want to
be in as a podcast, but I think

[Daniel]: No, but

[Jay]: that

[Daniel]: it's

[Jay]: actually

[Daniel]: true.

[Jay]: is true, has

[Daniel]: Yeah,

[Jay]: been true

[Daniel]: of course it is, yeah.

[Jay]: this season,

[Daniel]: Learn

[Jay]: which has

[Daniel]: something

[Jay]: been great.

[Daniel]: new.

[Jay]: What's cool about this season, I think
so far has been there's been so many different

[Jay]: voices.

[Jay]: You hear the passion from all of these
folks in different areas. And I know for myself,

[Jay]: I've learned a lot and, um, not only
about diving and about those interests, but

[Jay]: about divers and, and those, how those
paths, uh, how they gone down their path and

[Jay]: things. And so that's been a really cool
thing. And it was actually, it's crazy. I didn't

[Jay]: tell you the story, but, uh, we were
at a dive shop getting gas fills and, um, the

[Jay]: guy behind the counter and there was
just chatting with them. So, what's your story?

[Jay]: Like, what are you working on? He's like,
oh, you know, my ultimate goal is to be an

[Jay]: underwater archeologist. I kid you not.
Those are the words that came out of his mouth.

[Daniel]: Interesting.

[Jay]: And I probably look like such a fool
because I was like, no, bleep. You're kidding,

[Jay]: I'm gonna stop. You're kidding me. Like,
I like yelling at this poor dude. He's, you

[Jay]: know, just

[Daniel]: It's

[Jay]: graduated,

[Daniel]: like, what?

[Jay]: got his master's. He's like, why is this
guy yelling? And I was so excited because I'm

[Jay]: like, oh, we just finished these two
episodes with you gotta meet this guy, Greg,

[Jay]: blah, blah. I'll introduce you guys.
And we started talking about the stories and

[Jay]: all that. And so, um, I'm bummed I haven't
heard from, so you're listening to this episode,

[Jay]: dude from ocean enterprises. I forgot
your name already. Why haven't you reached

[Jay]: out? Number one and number two, I know
where you work. So I'm going to come and say

[Jay]: hi to you. Um, but I want to introduce
him and Greg and hopefully he's listened to

[Jay]: some of the episodes because

[Daniel]: I love

[Jay]: it was crazy.

[Daniel]: Greg's definition of underwater archaeology.

[Jay]: Yeah.

[Daniel]: Do you remember from the episode?

[Jay]: Yeah, it's

[Daniel]: He's

[Jay]: like.

[Daniel]: like, well, basically everything you
do in archaeology, underwater. And

[Jay]: Yeah.

[Daniel]: it caught you off guard for a second.
It was a funny moment. I think it's clipped.

[Daniel]: I think I clipped

[Jay]: Hahaha

[Daniel]: it out there. Yeah. So hey, I got
to run. I've got a

[Jay]: Yeah,

[Daniel]: 3

[Jay]: it's

[Daniel]: a.m.

[Jay]: a long episode.

[Daniel]: flight. So can you take us out?

[Jay]: Yeah, let's wrap this baby up. So again,
out there in the skewiverse, thanks for joining

[Jay]: us. Hopefully this was interesting to
you, but a good idea from producer Daniel here.

[Jay]: And if you would like to connect with
us, please do. You can go to thedivetable.com

[Jay]: and send us a message. We love hearing
from you and love hearing your thoughts, especially

[Jay]: I'm imagining I'm gonna get a thousand
Re-Reader emails now about

[Daniel]: And

[Jay]: why

[Daniel]: virus

[Jay]: they're,

[Daniel]: comments

[Jay]: and virus

[Daniel]: too. Yeah

[Jay]: comments, yeah. I did not say I was an
anti-vaxxer or for

[Daniel]: Nope.

[Jay]: vaccines. I just explained the science,
but

[Daniel]: Yeah,

[Jay]: I'm sure

[Daniel]: fuck.

[Jay]: I'm going to get emails. Uh, but reach
out to us. Um, the, the dive table.com also,

[Jay]: if you are interested in learning more
about the training that I've been on or the

[Jay]: training that I provide as an instructor,
uh, you can go to Gardner underwater.com. It's

[Jay]: Gardner underwater.com and reach out
to me there or wherever. I love to talk about

[Jay]: that stuff. And as always, we are a production
of Fish Dive Surf, Inc. And so if you want

[Jay]: to learn more about waterway conservation
and the connection between fishing, diving,

[Jay]: and surfing, go to fishdivesurfinc.com
and you can reach out to Daniel.

[Daniel]: That's justfishdivesurf.com.

[Jay]: Oh, sorry, fishdivesurf.com.

[Daniel]: That's all.

[Jay]: The Inc is implied, it's silent.

[Daniel]: The ink is permanent.

[Jay]: The Inc is pronounced. with nothing,
just

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: fishdivesurf.com. Yes, fishdivesurf.com.
So please reach out, we'd love to hear from

[Jay]: you. We'd love to hear what your journey's
looking like. What surprised you? I have a

[Jay]: ton of surprises this year.

[Daniel]: Definitely.

[Jay]: And I'm sure we'll hear

[Daniel]: Here's

[Jay]: from

[Daniel]: some

[Jay]: lots

[Daniel]: stories.

[Jay]: of you. And maybe

[Daniel]: Yeah.

[Jay]: we should, you know, to read some of
these on air. We'll get some and read them

[Jay]: on air, that'd be fun.

[Daniel]: I do.

[Jay]: Yeah, so thanks for joining us for this
episode, and we hope you come back for the

[Jay]: next episode of The Dive Table.

[Daniel]: No, my mouse is not working.